Following a weeklong trip to Canada, Pope Francis arrived back in Rome on Saturday. The pope made a “penitential pilgrimage” to Edmonton, Québec, and Iqaluit during his visit from July 24 to July 30 to voice his apologies to the nation’s indigenous communities.
The full transcript of Pope Francis’ news conference on the flight from Iqaluit, Canada, to Italy may be found here.
Pope Francis: Good evening and thank you for your accompaniment, for your work here. I know you have worked hard, and thank you for the company. Thank you.
Matteo Bruni, director of the Holy See press office: Good, the first question tonight is from Ka’nhehsíio Deer, a Canadian journalist of Inuit origin.
Ka’nhehsíio Deer, CBC Radio [in English]: My name is Ka’nhehsíio Deer. I am a reporter with CBC Indigenous. As a descendant of a residential school survivor, I know that survivors and families want to see concrete action in your apology, including rescinding the “doctrine of discovery.” Given that it is still ingrained in the Constitution and legal systems within Canada and the United States, where indigenous people continue to be dispossessed and disempowered, was it a missed opportunity to issue a statement during your trip to Canada?
Pope Francis: On the last part, I don’t understand the problem.
Ka’nhehsíio Deer: It’s just that indigenous people still today are being dispossessed and disempowered with, you know, like that their land was taken away from them because of these papal bulls and the concept of the doctrine of discovery.
When I talk to indigenous people, they talk a lot about how when people came to colonize the Americas, there was this — the doctrine of discovery was something that gave the concept that indigenous peoples of those lands were inferior to Catholics, and that is how Canada and the United States became countries.
Pope Francis: Thank you for the question. I think this is a problem of every colonialism, every — even today’s ideological colonizations have the same pattern. Those who do not enter their path have ways that are inferior. But I want to elaborate on this. They were considered not only inferior. Some somewhat crazy theologian wondered if they had souls.
When John Paul II went to Africa to the port where the slaves were boarded, he made a sign for us to come to understand the drama, the criminal drama. Those people were thrown into the ship in dire conditions, and then they were slaves in America. It is true that there were voices that spoke out, like Bartolomé de las Casas for example or Peter Claver, but they were the minority.
The consciousness of human equality came slowly. And I say consciousness because in the unconscious, there is still something. Always we have — allow me to say — like a colonialist attitude of reducing their culture to ours. It is something that happens to us in our developed way of life; sometimes we lose the values that they have.
For example, indigenous peoples have a great value which is the value of harmony with creation. And at least some I know express it in the phrase “living well.” That does not mean, as we Westerners understand it, to spend it well or to live the sweet life, no. To live well is to cherish harmony, and that, to me, is the great value of the indigenous peoples: harmony. We are used to reducing everything to the mind. And instead, the personality of the original peoples — I am speaking generally — they know how to express themselves in three languages: that of the head, that of the heart, and that of the hands. But all of them together. And they know how to have this language with creation. So then this accelerated developmental progressivism, a little bit exaggerated, a little bit neurotic, that we have — I’m not speaking against development, development is good, but that anxiety of development, development, development is not good … Look, one of the things that our super-developed commercial civilization has lost is the capacity for poetry. Indigenous peoples have that poetic capacity. I’m not idealizing.
Then, this doctrine of colonization, truly, it is bad and unfair. Even today, the same is used — with silken gloves maybe — but it is used. For example, some bishops in some countries have said: “But our country, when it asks for credit from an international organization, they put conditions on us, even legislative, colonialist conditions. To give credit, they make you change your way of life a little bit.” Going back to our colonization, let’s say of America, the colonization of the British, French, Spanish and Portuguese, which are four … there has always been that danger, indeed that mentality of “we are superior, and these indigenous people don’t count.” And that is serious. That’s why we have to work on what you say. To go back and sanitize, let’s say, what was done wrong, in the knowledge that even today, the same colonialism exists.
Think, for example, of a case, which is universal, and I dare to say it, think of the case of the Rohingya in Myanmar: they have no right to citizenship, they are inferior. Even today. [In English] Thank you very much.
Bruni: The second question, Your Holiness, comes from another Canadian journalist, Brittany Hobson.
Brittany Hobson, The Canadian Press: Good evening Pope Francis, My name is Brittany Hobson. I am a reporter with the Canadian press. You have often spoken on the need to speak clearly, honestly, forthrightly, and with parrhesia. You know that Canada’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission described the residential school system as “cultural genocide.” This has since been amended to just “genocide.” Those who were listening to your apologies the past week did express disappointment that the word genocide was not used. Would you use those words and accept that members of the Church participated in genocide?
Pope Francis: It’s true, I didn’t use the word because it didn’t occur to me, but I described the genocide and asked for pardon, forgiveness for this work that is genocidal. For example, I condemned this too: Taking away children and changing culture, changing mentalities, changing traditions, changing a race, let’s say, a whole culture. Yes, it’s a technical word, genocide, but I didn’t use it because it didn’t come to mind, but I described it. It is true; yes, it’s genocide. Yes, you all, be calm. You can say that I said that, yes, that it was genocide. [In English] Yes. Yes. Thank you.
Bruni: Another question comes from Valentina Alazraki; you know her well, from Televisa.
Valentina Alazraki, Televisa: Pope Francis, good evening. We assume that this trip to Canada was also a test, a test for your health, for your — what you said this morning — physical limitations. So we wanted to know what — after this week — you can tell us about your future travels. Whether you want to continue traveling like this, whether there will be trips that you can’t do because of these limitations, or whether maybe you think that after this week that a knee surgery could help resolve the situation so you can travel like before?
Pope Francis: Thank you. I don’t know. I don’t think I can move at the same pace of travel as before. I think that at my age and with this limitation, I have to cut back a little bit to be able to serve the Church or, on the contrary, think about the possibility of stepping aside. This is nothing strange. This is not a catastrophe. You can change the pope. You can change, no problem. But I think I have to limit myself a little bit with these efforts.
Knee surgery is not planned in my case. The experts say yes, but there is the whole problem of anesthesia. Ten months ago, I underwent more than six hours of anesthesia, and there are still traces. You don’t play, you don’t mess around with anesthesia. And that’s why you think it’s not entirely convenient. … But I’m going to try to continue to go on trips and be close to people, because I think it is a way of service, closeness, but more than that I don’t get to say. Hopefully. There is no visit to Mexico [scheduled] yet, is there?
Alazraki: No, no. And in Kazakhstan? And if you go to Kazakhstan, shouldn’t you maybe go to Ukraine, even as you go to Kazakhstan?
Pope Francis: I said I would like to go to Ukraine. Let’s see now what I find when I get home. For the moment, I would like to go to Kazakhstan; it’s a quiet trip without a lot of movement, it’s a congress of religions. But for the time being, everything stands.
Because I need to go to South Sudan before Congo, because it is a trip with the Archbishop of Canterbury and the bishop of the Church of Scotland, all three together as all three of us did the retreat two years ago. And then the Congo, but it will be next year because of the rainy season — we’ll see. I have all the goodwill, but let’s see what the leg says.
Bruni: The next question, Holiness, is from Caroline Pigozzi of Paris Match.
Caroline Pigozzi, Paris Match: Good evening, Holy Father. This morning you met at the archbishopric as you do every time you go to a country with local members of the Society of Jesus, your family. Nine years ago, returning from World Youth Day in Brazil, I had asked you on July 28, 2013, if you still felt like a Jesuit. The answer was positive.
On Dec. 4, you explained after seeing the Jesuits of Greece in Athens, “When one starts a process, one must let it develop, let a work grow, and then retire. Every Jesuit has to do that. No work belongs to him because it belongs to the Lord.” Holy Father, could this statement also one day apply to a Jesuit pope?
Pope Francis: Yes.
Pigozzi: Does that mean you could retire like the Jesuits?
Pope Francis: Yes, yes. It is a vocation.
Pigozzi: To be a pope or to be a Jesuit?
Pope Francis: Let the Lord say. The Jesuit tries to — he tries, he doesn’t always, he can’t — do the Lord’s will. The Jesuit pope must do the same. When the Lord speaks, if the Lord says go ahead, go ahead. If the Lord says go to the corner, you go to the corner. It is the Lord who teaches …
Pigozzi: By what you say, you mean that you are waiting to die?
Pope Francis: But all of us are awaiting death …
Pigozzi: But I mean: will you not retire first?
Pope Francis: Whatever the Lord says. The Lord can tell me to resign. It is the Lord who commands.
One thing about St. Ignatius, and this is important. When someone was tired or sick, St. Ignatius would dispense him from prayer, but he never dispensed them from examination of conscience — twice a day, a look at what has happened … It’s not about sins or no sins, no. It is how the spirit moved me today. Our vocation, he said, is to search for what happened today. If I — this is a hypothetical — I see that the Lord is telling me something, I do a discernment to see what the Lord is saying and it may be that the Lord wants to throw me in the corner. He is in charge.
This I think is the religious way of life of a Jesuit: Being in spiritual discernment to make decisions, to choose ways of working, to discern compromises as well. St. Ignatius in this was very nuanced because it was his own experience of spiritual discernment that led him to conversion. And the Spiritual Exercises are really a school of discernment. By vocation, a Jesuit must be a man of discernment. Discerning situations, discerning conscience, discerning decisions to be made. And for that he must be open to whatever the Lord asks of him. This is kind of our spirituality.
Pigozzi: But do you feel more like a pope or more like a Jesuit?
Pope Francis: I have never made that measurement. I feel I am a servant of the Lord with a Jesuit mentality. There is no papal spirituality; that does not exist. Each pope brings forth his own spirituality. Think of John Paul II with that beautiful Marian spirituality he had. He had it before and as pope. Think of so many popes who have brought their own spirituality. The papacy is not a spirituality; it is a job, a function, a service, but each one brings to it his own spirituality, with his own graces, his own faithfulness and also his own sins. But there is no papal spirituality. That is why there is no comparison between Jesuit spirituality and papal spirituality because the latter does not exist. Do you understand? Thank you!
Bruni: Another question, Your Holiness, comes from a German journalist, Severina Bartonischek, from a Catholic news agency in Germany.
Severina Bartonitschek, KNA: Good evening. Holy Father, yesterday you also spoke about the fraternity in the Church, about a community that knows how to listen and do dialogue, that promotes a good quality of relationships. A few days ago there was a statement from the Holy See on the German “Synodal Way” without a signature. Do you think this way of communication contributes to dialogue, or is it an obstacle to dialogue?
Pope Francis: First of all, that statement was made by the Secretariat of State. It was a mistake not to [sign it] below. I think it said: communiqué from the Secretariat of State, but I’m not sure. It was a mistake not to sign it as a communiqué of the Secretary of State. But it is a mistake of the office, not of ill will.
On the [German] “Synodal Way”, I wrote a letter, and I did so by myself … a month of prayer, reflection, consultations … and I said everything I had to say about the “Synodal Way”. More than that I will not say. That is the papal magisterium on the “Synodal Way”, that letter I wrote [three] years ago. I bypassed the Curia, because I didn’t do consultations, or anything … I did my own way, even as a pastor for a Church that is looking for a way, as a brother, as a father, as a believer. And this is my message. I know it’s not easy, but it’s all in that letter.
Bruni: The next question is from Ignazio Ingrao of Rai1.
Ignazio Ingrao, Rai1: Your Holiness, Italy is going through a difficult time that also causes concern internationally. There is an economic crisis, pandemic, war, and now we also find ourselves without a government. You are the primate of Italy. In the telegram you wrote to President [Sergio] Mattarella on his birthday, you spoke of a country marked by not a few difficulties and called for crucial choices. Your Holiness, how did you experience the fall of Mario Draghi?
Pope Francis: First of all, I do not want to meddle in Italian domestic politics. Second, no one can say that President Draghi was not a man of high international standing, he was pres
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